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@aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon

Matrix were funded by Protocol Labs (IPFS, Filecoin crypto) and by the guy that started Skype and Kazaa.

It is well known from Snowden docs (and earlier!) that Skype had a government backdoor.

Kazaa was also loaded with spyware.

Matrix is institutionally compromised.

@jebba @aral @jalcine @element @amatecha @matrix @liaizon Matrix was created & initially funded at Amdocs. When funding got cut, creators started a company which became Element. You may disagree w/ what Element does as a company, but Matrix (protocol) is #FOSS. U can review homesevers' code, u can review spec, u can even review Element apps' code, & u can use other 3rd party clients w/o touching Element. Ur friends & enemies use FOSS. That's what it means to be free & open. Anyone can use it.

@viktor

Yes, I understand all that.

I also understand who funds and partners with a company affects their priorities.

I can look at their code, but they are institutionally compromised which will affect their decisions.

Also, earlier someone mentioned the investor--he was founder of dodgy apps too, not just money.

Want to know a group, see who they work with.

@jebba You're conflating Element and Matrix. Matrix is managed by Matrix Foundation, which has "guardians" that are not part of Element. If Matrix is institutionally compromised then every single #FOSS is compromised, too, because they do what other FOSS do. No more, no less.

https://matrix.org/foundation/

@viktor @jebba As a tiny org that makes #FOSS and doesn’t and wouldn’t peddle our wares at police conferences or work with them (as we’ve made sacrifices to enable us to keep working on building things for *people* not *enterprises/governments*), I reject that statement. We’re living proof that it’s not true. And I like to think we’re not the only ones. FOSS !== enterprise software !== a total lack of ethical standards in who you are funded by (and thank fuck for that).

@viktor @jebba OK, Viktor, clearly this is the hill you’ve chosen. We disagree profoundly and there isn’t time in the world to argue with everyone who defends a broken status quo. #FOSS licenses may lack ethical safeguards but that doesn’t mean that the organisations we build and the tools we design must do so too. We can layer ethical principles on top (e.g., https://small-tech.org/about/#small-technology) instead of proudly embracing its rampant exploitation by corporations/governments as a feature.

@aral @jebba If FOSS licenses had ethical safeguards they would not be FOSS. As much as I hate to say it, if you want to limit access to FOSS based on your ethical standards then you don't support FOSS. That's a hill I will die on, because that's what it means to be free and open.

@viktor @aral @jebba Strong disagree here, and I think a lot of other people, including those old coders swapping programs on mainframes that started all this, wouldn't agree either.

There is nothing about FOSS that means it has to be shared with corporations.

@sj_zero @jebba @viktor For fuck’s sake, I wake up every day and write free software and I’ve been doing so for over a decade at great personal expense. Don’t fucking explain to me what FOSS is and isn’t. FOSS licenses may not be ethical but that doesn’t mean you don’t have to be. It doesn’t mean you can’t layer ethical restrictions on top of what you’re building with how you design things. And it sure has hell doesn’t mean you’re compelled to legitimise folks who peddle their wares to the cops.

@aral @sj_zero @jebba @viktor

@sj_zero @jebba @aral @viktor Well, AFAICS said FLOSS with absurd licensing terms quickly dies out...

Also if projects have the time and energy to make troll terms then they're already full of Kekistanis or otherwise already useless...

@sj_zero @jebba @aral @kkarhan Those are good points. I personally have seen a project stalled due to "death by committee".

Speaking of Jesus Christ, a good example of this in open source is SQLite. Aral, I'm curious, what do you think of such a code of ethics? This is what you're advocating for.

https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html

Lastly, I stick to @conservancy's Copyleft project definition of #FOSS:
https://copyleft.org/guide/comprehensive-gpl-guidech2.html#x5-40001

@chrisg @aral *nodds in agreement.

I'm convinced we'll see more #NonCommercial-only #FLOSS + Commercial dual-licenses in the future that basically offer a #OpenSource product for everyone to use and install as well as a commercially supported and maintained version.

Kinda like @collabora @CollaboraOffice & @nextcloud / #Nextcloud work...

@aral I completely agree with the non-profit, coop structure, it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Donations and support may turn out to be sufficient for a small group of people to sustain operations (until we eat the rich and establish UBI, of course).

It's necessary for people to see that there are alternatives to their salaried toil.

And FOSS, as it is right now as a movement, isn't it. It's basically a marketing tool.